16.10.2008
We’re going small-muscle-saloon crazy in a couple of weeks. A C63 with the sport pack (that includes an LSD) will be joined by a Lexus ISF and our long term M3 saloon. It’s a pretty straight-forward contest really, but there are two things we need from you guys.
1) Your usual feedback in terms of specific questions you would like answered.
2) Should we include an RS4 saloon? We know it’s no longer available as a new car, but surely anyone in the market for one of the above would want to consider a very late model used RS4, given how wonderful a road car it is. Then again, should we just be dealing with the newbies?
Let us know your thoughts.
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179 Comments
Gonçalo Faustino
September 23, 2008I think it’d be nice to include the RS4, a benchmark from the “previous generation”, to get the feel of how things are evolving.
Anyway, it’s rated as a great driver’s car, makes sense in that company.
Gonçalo Faustino
September 23, 2008I think it’d be nice to include the RS4, a benchmark from the “previous generation”, to get the feel of how things are evolving.
Anyway, it’s rated as a great driver’s car, makes sense in that company.
nsu300zx
September 23, 2008If the CTS-V isn’t in it, you don’t have the fastest saloon.
nsu300zx
September 23, 2008If the CTS-V isn’t in it, you don’t have the fastest saloon.
trevor esling
September 23, 2008You should include the RS4 in your muscle saloon car test (you know it makes sense)!
trevor esling
September 23, 2008You should include the RS4 in your muscle saloon car test (you know it makes sense)!
Jethro Bovingdon
September 23, 2008We did think of the CTS-V, but the press car won’t be in Europe in time. A real shame, but a good excuse to see how the winner shapes up against it a bit later in the year.
Jethro Bovingdon
September 23, 2008We did think of the CTS-V, but the press car won’t be in Europe in time. A real shame, but a good excuse to see how the winner shapes up against it a bit later in the year.
Simon
September 23, 2008I would like to see the RS4 included in the test. It should be very similar to the M3 in terms of performance.
Simon
September 23, 2008I would like to see the RS4 included in the test. It should be very similar to the M3 in terms of performance.
Marco Cassetti
September 23, 2008What about including the Vauxhall VXR8 in the contest?
Marco Cassetti
September 23, 2008What about including the Vauxhall VXR8 in the contest?
Alan
September 23, 2008I also agree the RS4 should be included. No doubt the others will be more fun on the track, but some comments about how they compare off it would also be great.
If you are testing the m3 DCT, maybe you could comment on the shift delay in the transmission when using the fastest shift speeds. I know this has been brought up by several owners on the bmw boards.
Also, for the c63, maybe you guys could give your opinion on why the car has come with such undersized tires on the rear relative to the torque/power of the car. Some other reviews have found the rear end grip to be lacking. You will no doubt be bringing the cars to the track, so maybe the issue will be exposed there. It seems like an issue that really affects the stability of the car when “pushing it”. Thanks, and keep up the superb writing and article quality.
Alan
September 23, 2008I also agree the RS4 should be included. No doubt the others will be more fun on the track, but some comments about how they compare off it would also be great.
If you are testing the m3 DCT, maybe you could comment on the shift delay in the transmission when using the fastest shift speeds. I know this has been brought up by several owners on the bmw boards.
Also, for the c63, maybe you guys could give your opinion on why the car has come with such undersized tires on the rear relative to the torque/power of the car. Some other reviews have found the rear end grip to be lacking. You will no doubt be bringing the cars to the track, so maybe the issue will be exposed there. It seems like an issue that really affects the stability of the car when “pushing it”. Thanks, and keep up the superb writing and article quality.
Richard - DR
September 23, 2008With any luck we’ll also include a certain Mr C Harris’s E39 M5, if not in the main test then certainly within a counterpoint story showing what older V8 metal you can get for horribly tempting money.
Same goes for the VXR8 (and a Chrysler 300C SRT-8, if we can get one!), for although experience suggests the big Vauxhall would struggle against the ‘premium’ brands’ cars in terms of all-round polish, ability/desirability, it does offer tremendous performance and presence for considerably less money, so should be included in some way.
Richard - DR
September 23, 2008With any luck we’ll also include a certain Mr C Harris’s E39 M5, if not in the main test then certainly within a counterpoint story showing what older V8 metal you can get for horribly tempting money.
Same goes for the VXR8 (and a Chrysler 300C SRT-8, if we can get one!), for although experience suggests the big Vauxhall would struggle against the ‘premium’ brands’ cars in terms of all-round polish, ability/desirability, it does offer tremendous performance and presence for considerably less money, so should be included in some way.
Alan
September 23, 2008You should definitely include the RS4.
Please, please make the test more road driving than track driving. I am hugely interested in exactly this group of cars but would not take any that I bought anywhere near a track (like most owners). It sounds very strange, but sometimes the best benchmark for these cars for daily use is how easily they drive slowly, as they are all excellent at going fast !.
A mix of conditions (especially wet and slippery) would aslo be good and I suspect would act significantly in the RS4′s advantage.
Alan
September 23, 2008You should definitely include the RS4.
Please, please make the test more road driving than track driving. I am hugely interested in exactly this group of cars but would not take any that I bought anywhere near a track (like most owners). It sounds very strange, but sometimes the best benchmark for these cars for daily use is how easily they drive slowly, as they are all excellent at going fast !.
A mix of conditions (especially wet and slippery) would aslo be good and I suspect would act significantly in the RS4′s advantage.
Vitor Pinto
September 23, 2008I would really like to see the E39 M5 included in this test.
It would also be interesting to see other cars like Alpina B5 in the contest. Some sort of tuned alternative to the maintsream.
Vitor Pinto
September 23, 2008I would really like to see the E39 M5 included in this test.
It would also be interesting to see other cars like Alpina B5 in the contest. Some sort of tuned alternative to the maintsream.
Sven Scheid
September 23, 2008Add a proper Sportscar such as a Porsche 911S. I mean, that’s what the marketing guys from BMW and Mercedes aim at, they tell us the story that your fat Beemer or Merc will outperform real Sportcars. I bet not, why don’t you try to convince me that I’m wrong…
Sven Scheid
September 23, 2008Add a proper Sportscar such as a Porsche 911S. I mean, that’s what the marketing guys from BMW and Mercedes aim at, they tell us the story that your fat Beemer or Merc will outperform real Sportcars. I bet not, why don’t you try to convince me that I’m wrong…
Danny
September 23, 2008Think you should include the RS4.Personally i couldnt afford a new m3 or c63 but would consider a used RS4.Would you give some ideas of running cost etc
Danny
September 23, 2008Think you should include the RS4.Personally i couldnt afford a new m3 or c63 but would consider a used RS4.Would you give some ideas of running cost etc
James K
September 23, 2008I think the RS4 should definately be included, just to keep everything interesting.
WHat would also be interetsing is including a C63AMG without the sport pack – just to see how much of an improvement it is on the standard car.
PLUS – if you’re going to include a used car – what else is the same price as a late RS4? M5 as mentioned…..?
Be a great read this one.
James K
September 23, 2008I think the RS4 should definately be included, just to keep everything interesting.
WHat would also be interetsing is including a C63AMG without the sport pack – just to see how much of an improvement it is on the standard car.
PLUS – if you’re going to include a used car – what else is the same price as a late RS4? M5 as mentioned…..?
Be a great read this one.
Alex
September 23, 2008The RS4 would make a great benchmark.
Alex
September 23, 2008The RS4 would make a great benchmark.
Jason T
September 24, 2008Hey guys masssssive fan! havn’t had the joy of driving any of these cars but i’d love to see the RS4 in it (with carbon ceramics too!). I, and i’m sure chris and the rest of you are probably just as keen as i am to see how well the RS4 comes up against the noobs and to see if they have moved the game on at all! other things? hmmm is a trip to the ring on the cards? a boost to the isle of man would be quite amazing, of course some lovely telemetry vids (just make sure the voice mic isn’t too loud and that it stays on too! lol) keep churning out the good stuff, you have my e-mail address if you ever consider taking on a keen aprentice! peace x
Jason T
September 24, 2008Hey guys masssssive fan! havn’t had the joy of driving any of these cars but i’d love to see the RS4 in it (with carbon ceramics too!). I, and i’m sure chris and the rest of you are probably just as keen as i am to see how well the RS4 comes up against the noobs and to see if they have moved the game on at all! other things? hmmm is a trip to the ring on the cards? a boost to the isle of man would be quite amazing, of course some lovely telemetry vids (just make sure the voice mic isn’t too loud and that it stays on too! lol) keep churning out the good stuff, you have my e-mail address if you ever consider taking on a keen aprentice! peace x
David
September 24, 2008Awesome! Definitely keep the Audi RS4 in the mix, if you can. I believe a review based on a day spent with the cars tootling around town has some point.
However, I believe it will be most entertaining to hear your feedback after a day of track use with these cars. How they handle, how well they drive quickly around a track, how controllable their drifts are (lots of videos would be nice
hehe) …how easy it is the shift quickly, etc.
Lots of videos please!
David
September 24, 2008Awesome! Definitely keep the Audi RS4 in the mix, if you can. I believe a review based on a day spent with the cars tootling around town has some point.
However, I believe it will be most entertaining to hear your feedback after a day of track use with these cars. How they handle, how well they drive quickly around a track, how controllable their drifts are (lots of videos would be nice
hehe) …how easy it is the shift quickly, etc.
Lots of videos please!
tforth
September 24, 2008Contrary to one of the comments listed below, I think more and more buyers of this car class will take them to at least a few track days. So, lets see a 5 lap battle. Has BMW finally got brakes that will last? I know driver ability will be a big part of it, but it would make for some very interesting viewing. Best Motoring has done this for years!
tforth
September 24, 2008Contrary to one of the comments listed below, I think more and more buyers of this car class will take them to at least a few track days. So, lets see a 5 lap battle. Has BMW finally got brakes that will last? I know driver ability will be a big part of it, but it would make for some very interesting viewing. Best Motoring has done this for years!
AdamNI
September 24, 2008It would make sense to include the RS4, just because it isn’t made anymore doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be included. It still has the numbers to match the others. I’d love to see an E39 M5 included though. I know it’s childish, but drag race down a runway please! I love them.
AdamNI
September 24, 2008It would make sense to include the RS4, just because it isn’t made anymore doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be included. It still has the numbers to match the others. I’d love to see an E39 M5 included though. I know it’s childish, but drag race down a runway please! I love them.
Mr Leigh
September 24, 2008This has me rubbing my hands together with glee. Speaking as an ex-owner I think the RS4 should be in the test, as it was imo the top of the previous generation of super saloons. I have ordered a Nissan GT-R and will be fancinated to see you putting the RS4 and it’s new bretheren around Silverstone so I can compare it to my new purchase. Great work everyone at DR.
Mr Leigh
September 24, 2008This has me rubbing my hands together with glee. Speaking as an ex-owner I think the RS4 should be in the test, as it was imo the top of the previous generation of super saloons. I have ordered a Nissan GT-R and will be fancinated to see you putting the RS4 and it’s new bretheren around Silverstone so I can compare it to my new purchase. Great work everyone at DR.
Keith Bird
September 24, 2008These cars are supposed to be all in one solutions for performance and practicality.
How would they compare to the prospect of a financially matched 2 car setup?
Keith Bird
September 24, 2008These cars are supposed to be all in one solutions for performance and practicality.
How would they compare to the prospect of a financially matched 2 car setup?
Kermit79
September 24, 2008For my money I would like to see something important for this test being a control tyre, as you all know this is about the most important part of a vehicle as it is responsible for taking all of the physics and putting them onto the tarmac, and if there is a timed lap this can be responsible for losing or gaining huge amounts of time, as well as completely changing the ‘feel’ of a vehicle. I appreciate it may be difficult due to costs, and also manufacturers having a supplied/preferred choice.
Kermit79
September 24, 2008For my money I would like to see something important for this test being a control tyre, as you all know this is about the most important part of a vehicle as it is responsible for taking all of the physics and putting them onto the tarmac, and if there is a timed lap this can be responsible for losing or gaining huge amounts of time, as well as completely changing the ‘feel’ of a vehicle. I appreciate it may be difficult due to costs, and also manufacturers having a supplied/preferred choice.
DBT
September 24, 2008Yes you should include an RS4 saloon, as people would see it as a rival, even though it’s not brand new!
If it’s that good they might want to save themselves enough money to buy a little runaround for the wife, or a dedicated track toy.
But what I really want to know is – what do I need to do to get a drive in your C63?
DBT
September 24, 2008Yes you should include an RS4 saloon, as people would see it as a rival, even though it’s not brand new!
If it’s that good they might want to save themselves enough money to buy a little runaround for the wife, or a dedicated track toy.
But what I really want to know is – what do I need to do to get a drive in your C63?
Jethro Bovingdon
September 24, 2008The test will of course be road-based, however I can’t promise there’ll be too much slow driving… Ok we’ll sit in some traffic just for you lot! We hope to get fast laps at Silverstone, too. Although as the year goes on the chance of rain will be an ‘interesting’ new factor.
Kermit – a control tyre just isn’t feasible. Cost is one thing, but the reality is that manufacturers know how important tyres are too, and most cars now wear bespoke compound/sidewall stiffness etc rubber. It would be a bit unfair to take an M3 – developed specifically on Michelin PS2/Cup + – and plonk a set of Goodyears on it? And although the last C63 we had was fitted with Yokohamas that didn’t work on track, they gave it great balance (if not massive mechanical grip) on the road.
Jethro Bovingdon
September 24, 2008The test will of course be road-based, however I can’t promise there’ll be too much slow driving… Ok we’ll sit in some traffic just for you lot! We hope to get fast laps at Silverstone, too. Although as the year goes on the chance of rain will be an ‘interesting’ new factor.
Kermit – a control tyre just isn’t feasible. Cost is one thing, but the reality is that manufacturers know how important tyres are too, and most cars now wear bespoke compound/sidewall stiffness etc rubber. It would be a bit unfair to take an M3 – developed specifically on Michelin PS2/Cup + – and plonk a set of Goodyears on it? And although the last C63 we had was fitted with Yokohamas that didn’t work on track, they gave it great balance (if not massive mechanical grip) on the road.
Richard - DR
September 24, 2008We should add that the C63 Estate we drove against the RS6 Avant didn’t have the sport kit, so no diff etc. Though it’s always hard to make direct lap time comparisons from different days, the subjective feel (both on the road and at Silverstone) of the non-sport C63 are logged -or should that be lodged?- in the seat of Jethro’s pants
Richard - DR
September 24, 2008We should add that the C63 Estate we drove against the RS6 Avant didn’t have the sport kit, so no diff etc. Though it’s always hard to make direct lap time comparisons from different days, the subjective feel (both on the road and at Silverstone) of the non-sport C63 are logged -or should that be lodged?- in the seat of Jethro’s pants
tribeca
September 24, 2008I like Keith’s idea of comparing an all in one car to a two car set up for the same money.
Maybe worth a stand alone article… M3 vs. a hatch + something more track orientated, if that is possible to do on the money?
tribeca
September 24, 2008I like Keith’s idea of comparing an all in one car to a two car set up for the same money.
Maybe worth a stand alone article… M3 vs. a hatch + something more track orientated, if that is possible to do on the money?
Richard - DR
September 24, 2008Yep, I second that, as stand alone feature. Perhaps we could pick three different new cars at three different price points (these are open for debate) and then pick our two-car alternatives to each. What do you think?
Richard - DR
September 24, 2008Yep, I second that, as stand alone feature. Perhaps we could pick three different new cars at three different price points (these are open for debate) and then pick our two-car alternatives to each. What do you think?
Russell B.
September 24, 2008I think that’s an excellent idea, especially in light of the recent CO2 based tax changes. I think pre 2001 MY cars will become increasingly appealing! And who can argue with two for the price of one…
Russell B.
September 24, 2008I think that’s an excellent idea, especially in light of the recent CO2 based tax changes. I think pre 2001 MY cars will become increasingly appealing! And who can argue with two for the price of one…
Mikel Lizarralde
September 24, 2008Please include the RS4. I own one and I’d like to see how it matches against the newest rivals!
Mikel Lizarralde
September 24, 2008Please include the RS4. I own one and I’d like to see how it matches against the newest rivals!
millerspain
September 24, 2008Glad to see that the test will include some (fast) road driving.
I liked the idea of a drag race, but how about some 0-100-0 figures and some in gear acceleration comparaisons?
Great webzine by the way.
millerspain
September 24, 2008Glad to see that the test will include some (fast) road driving.
I liked the idea of a drag race, but how about some 0-100-0 figures and some in gear acceleration comparaisons?
Great webzine by the way.
Chase
September 24, 2008Yes to the RS4. I’ve seen plenty of reviews of these cars on the track. Could you focus on their daily driving qualities (since most people who buy one will use it as a DD)?
Chase
September 24, 2008Yes to the RS4. I’ve seen plenty of reviews of these cars on the track. Could you focus on their daily driving qualities (since most people who buy one will use it as a DD)?
Richard - DR
September 24, 2008Keep the comments and suggestions coming. They all help to shape the story, so thanks for all your input thus far.
We’re yet to decide on a road location for driving and photography, but we’ll do our very best to include telemetry laps from the Silverstone GP circuit as a DR TV element to the test. There’s every chance we’ll do some acceleration runs too. Whether they happen to be side-by-side I couldn’t possibly say…
Richard - DR
September 24, 2008Keep the comments and suggestions coming. They all help to shape the story, so thanks for all your input thus far.
We’re yet to decide on a road location for driving and photography, but we’ll do our very best to include telemetry laps from the Silverstone GP circuit as a DR TV element to the test. There’s every chance we’ll do some acceleration runs too. Whether they happen to be side-by-side I couldn’t possibly say…
Daytonafan
September 24, 2008How about throwing in a used Quattroporte (easily available for £50K). There have already been various combinations of this test (including the RS4) in Evo, Car, Top Gear TV, and 5th Gear. It would be nice to see something a bit different.
Daytonafan
September 24, 2008How about throwing in a used Quattroporte (easily available for £50K). There have already been various combinations of this test (including the RS4) in Evo, Car, Top Gear TV, and 5th Gear. It would be nice to see something a bit different.
Ricard S
September 24, 2008How about a side story comparing some things actual prospective buyers(unfortunately not me !} might consider Cayman,X6 etc.Before a friend bought his RS4 it was a toss up between that and a Range Rover Sport. And if you considered used there’s some pretty diverse stuff available for £50k
Ricard S
September 24, 2008How about a side story comparing some things actual prospective buyers(unfortunately not me !} might consider Cayman,X6 etc.Before a friend bought his RS4 it was a toss up between that and a Range Rover Sport. And if you considered used there’s some pretty diverse stuff available for £50k
Ross
September 24, 2008The RS4 should be included because it is manual ‘box only and should therefore be celebrated as much as possible.
It also evens up the contest; 2 manuals vs 2 auto-changers.
This gives you the opportunity to berate Lexus and Merc for not offering manuals.
As motoring journalists your main purpose in life should be to champion the manual gearbox so it is available on every performance car, at least as an option.
However good alternatives become they will never offer the interactivity of a manual. They may be fractions of a second faster but most cars seem unnecessarily quick these days so you can afford to drop a few tenths to feel part of the action.
Ross
September 24, 2008The RS4 should be included because it is manual ‘box only and should therefore be celebrated as much as possible.
It also evens up the contest; 2 manuals vs 2 auto-changers.
This gives you the opportunity to berate Lexus and Merc for not offering manuals.
As motoring journalists your main purpose in life should be to champion the manual gearbox so it is available on every performance car, at least as an option.
However good alternatives become they will never offer the interactivity of a manual. They may be fractions of a second faster but most cars seem unnecessarily quick these days so you can afford to drop a few tenths to feel part of the action.
Richard - DR
September 24, 2008The Maser’s a good idea, although for sheer fun I’d love one of the older Quattroporte 3.2 V8 Evoluzione models. They are an absolute riot and must be similar money to Chris’s E39 M5, assuming you can find one that is.
Richard - DR
September 24, 2008The Maser’s a good idea, although for sheer fun I’d love one of the older Quattroporte 3.2 V8 Evoluzione models. They are an absolute riot and must be similar money to Chris’s E39 M5, assuming you can find one that is.
tribeca
September 24, 2008The dialogue section is really showing it’s worth, lots of suggestions for this article and the possibility of a future article (multi-car) idea. How good!
Seen a few C63′s floating around now and I love how aggressive they look.
I don’t think you need to include the RS4 in the main article. Perhaps including it as a box-out/appendage would be good see how things have (or haven’t) moved on.
tribeca
September 24, 2008The dialogue section is really showing it’s worth, lots of suggestions for this article and the possibility of a future article (multi-car) idea. How good!
Seen a few C63′s floating around now and I love how aggressive they look.
I don’t think you need to include the RS4 in the main article. Perhaps including it as a box-out/appendage would be good see how things have (or haven’t) moved on.
Jonathan
September 25, 2008As the car that kicked off all the fuss, the RS4 ought to be included. Were it not for the Quattro GmbH “2yr production” paradigm, no doubt it still would be in production.
In conjunction with the current economic climate decimating the residuals on £50+K cars, you’d be daft not to consider a “used” RS4 which had had some of the depreciation taken out of it if you’re in the “Super-Saloons” market at this point in time. My local BMW dealer can’t GIVE M3′s away…
When I bought my RS4 I also considered a “used” 996 Porsche Turbo.
In the end the B7 RS4 won hands down, because it was a “Super Saloon” rather than a “Sports car”.
The two cars inhabit different sectors and therefore get judged by different yardsticks. One hopes that you consider this fact when making the judgement between them?
I sacrificed a few tenths of ultimate performance for all the things the RS4 did better. The Porsche just looked daft with a topbox on it full of extreme sports equipment all the time….
In addition, the great advantage of quattro in Northern Europe, especially after the summer we’ve had, is that most of your performance is exploitable regardless of road conditions. One expects that were the performance yardstick something like the average lap time in both dry and wet conditions, the RS4 would win this contest with a healthy margin…even though it is an “oldie”?
Most RS4 owners appreciate this distinction, again happy to sacrifice a slight ultimate advantage for more “usable” performance.
That said, I can’t help thinking I already know the answer to which car will win this contest.
Keep up the good work.
Jonathan
September 25, 2008As the car that kicked off all the fuss, the RS4 ought to be included. Were it not for the Quattro GmbH “2yr production” paradigm, no doubt it still would be in production.
In conjunction with the current economic climate decimating the residuals on £50+K cars, you’d be daft not to consider a “used” RS4 which had had some of the depreciation taken out of it if you’re in the “Super-Saloons” market at this point in time. My local BMW dealer can’t GIVE M3′s away…
When I bought my RS4 I also considered a “used” 996 Porsche Turbo.
In the end the B7 RS4 won hands down, because it was a “Super Saloon” rather than a “Sports car”.
The two cars inhabit different sectors and therefore get judged by different yardsticks. One hopes that you consider this fact when making the judgement between them?
I sacrificed a few tenths of ultimate performance for all the things the RS4 did better. The Porsche just looked daft with a topbox on it full of extreme sports equipment all the time….
In addition, the great advantage of quattro in Northern Europe, especially after the summer we’ve had, is that most of your performance is exploitable regardless of road conditions. One expects that were the performance yardstick something like the average lap time in both dry and wet conditions, the RS4 would win this contest with a healthy margin…even though it is an “oldie”?
Most RS4 owners appreciate this distinction, again happy to sacrifice a slight ultimate advantage for more “usable” performance.
That said, I can’t help thinking I already know the answer to which car will win this contest.
Keep up the good work.
david
September 25, 2008Given you can pick up used M5 for 30 k now should be included for some real world comparison.
david
September 25, 2008Given you can pick up used M5 for 30 k now should be included for some real world comparison.
Federico Guzzoni
September 25, 2008Hi,
I think, you should include the RS4!
It’s a great car (I drive one) and it would be interesting to know if there really was a tecnical progress with the newcomers. If you can, you should add a test on wet roads…!
Looking forward to hear about the results!
Best regards from the Black Forest in Germany.
Federico
Federico Guzzoni
September 25, 2008Hi,
I think, you should include the RS4!
It’s a great car (I drive one) and it would be interesting to know if there really was a tecnical progress with the newcomers. If you can, you should add a test on wet roads…!
Looking forward to hear about the results!
Best regards from the Black Forest in Germany.
Federico
Chris Seibel
September 25, 2008Hello there..
I would love a lap time comparison between those cars.. and if you guys could include an Audi RS4 with the optional Sports Suspension I would finally be in media car heaven! Thanks in advance and congrats to this amazing online car magazine…
Greetings from Germany
Chris
Chris Seibel
September 25, 2008Hello there..
I would love a lap time comparison between those cars.. and if you guys could include an Audi RS4 with the optional Sports Suspension I would finally be in media car heaven! Thanks in advance and congrats to this amazing online car magazine…
Greetings from Germany
Chris
Alan
September 25, 2008Another interesting group of cars to consider in this test would be the equivalent fast diesels (C320CDI and 335d sport), particularly given Jethro’s comments in the longtermers about the M3 being the right car at the wrong time.
It would be interesting to see just how close in pace they come to the M3 and C63, and equally when driven hard, how economical they really are. I am getting an average of 24mpg from my RS4 avant despite some hard driving (helped considerably by the 2 ECU updates), and comparing this to the 30mpg Chris is getting from his diesel estate it actually seems quite reasonable. I suspect any comparison may show that the diesel options aren’t such an attractive alternative ??
Alan
September 25, 2008Another interesting group of cars to consider in this test would be the equivalent fast diesels (C320CDI and 335d sport), particularly given Jethro’s comments in the longtermers about the M3 being the right car at the wrong time.
It would be interesting to see just how close in pace they come to the M3 and C63, and equally when driven hard, how economical they really are. I am getting an average of 24mpg from my RS4 avant despite some hard driving (helped considerably by the 2 ECU updates), and comparing this to the 30mpg Chris is getting from his diesel estate it actually seems quite reasonable. I suspect any comparison may show that the diesel options aren’t such an attractive alternative ??
nc
September 25, 2008Which is better for everyday drive (not only on the track)?
How powerful does the M3 feel for everyday drive?
And obviously which is a better car, and which one would you buy?
nc
September 26, 2008Which is better for everyday drive (not only on the track)?
How powerful does the M3 feel for everyday drive?
And obviously which is a better car, and which one would you buy?
WardS
September 26, 2008I wouldn’t add the rs4. It’s not the same generation, it would be the only 4wd, and it won’t win. If it could win, it would be amasingly good, and I don’t think it’s really that good. It doesn’t belong here, and 3 cars is enough to focus on.
I’d like to see both track and road use reviewed, 50% of the video roaduse 50% trackuse. Because they’re not that harcore, 95% of the miles will be driven on the road. But ofcourse it’s very important to know which is fastest in a straight line and which is fastest on the track.
And at the end: which is best at what? And which is best if you want comfort, handling, power, total package…
Hope it will be a nice video. There’s a lot of potential
WardS
September 26, 2008I wouldn’t add the rs4. It’s not the same generation, it would be the only 4wd, and it won’t win. If it could win, it would be amasingly good, and I don’t think it’s really that good. It doesn’t belong here, and 3 cars is enough to focus on.
I’d like to see both track and road use reviewed, 50% of the video roaduse 50% trackuse. Because they’re not that harcore, 95% of the miles will be driven on the road. But ofcourse it’s very important to know which is fastest in a straight line and which is fastest on the track.
And at the end: which is best at what? And which is best if you want comfort, handling, power, total package…
Hope it will be a nice video. There’s a lot of potential
WardS
September 26, 2008and for the m3: do you get used to this kind of power? Does it still make you feel like the firs week? Enough comfort? HOw much petrol does it realy use?
WardS
September 26, 2008and for the m3: do you get used to this kind of power? Does it still make you feel like the firs week? Enough comfort? HOw much petrol does it realy use?
WardS
September 26, 2008P.S. Make a long video, you’re good at that. You can give so much lovely details
WardS
September 26, 2008P.S. Make a long video, you’re good at that. You can give so much lovely details
Jamie
September 26, 2008Two cars I think you should include, as incredible though it sounds, both are on my shopping list alongside the M3… 911 (non S actually) and 335d… I agree with Alan – just how quick on a day to day basis are these ‘fast’ diesels? I’ve never owned a diesel and until a very recent test drive in one of these I never thought I would. By the way, my local BMW dealer is literally giving away M3 saloons… don’t pay over £40k for a loaded example with c.2k miles on the clock.
Jamie
September 26, 2008Two cars I think you should include, as incredible though it sounds, both are on my shopping list alongside the M3… 911 (non S actually) and 335d… I agree with Alan – just how quick on a day to day basis are these ‘fast’ diesels? I’ve never owned a diesel and until a very recent test drive in one of these I never thought I would. By the way, my local BMW dealer is literally giving away M3 saloons… don’t pay over £40k for a loaded example with c.2k miles on the clock.
Dan Skeldon
September 26, 2008I think the Rs4 should be there as like Goncalo says, it was the benchmark, speaking of evolving and benchmarks it would be quite good to see where these cars started out from i.e the likes on the E30 M3, 190 evo, and the UR Quattro.
Another thought i had was, it would be fun to see what the family shaped supercars lap times are like when they are full of luggage with four people in them.
waremark
September 27, 2008Friends and I are having a private group test over an October weekend of M3 DCT Coupe/C63 sport pack/RS4. I hope you will include the Audi so I can compare our thoughts to yours! Would personally also like to see you include an E60 M5 or an M6, since these are available used at similar money to your core group.
waremark
September 27, 2008Friends and I are having a private group test over an October weekend of M3 DCT Coupe/C63 sport pack/RS4. I hope you will include the Audi so I can compare our thoughts to yours! Would personally also like to see you include an E60 M5 or an M6, since these are available used at similar money to your core group.
waremark
September 27, 2008Alan said: “If you are testing the m3 DCT, maybe you could comment on the shift delay in the transmission when using the fastest shift speeds. I know this has been brought up by several owners on the bmw boards.”
I haven’t seen these comments, what are they and where would I look for them? I don’t use the fast shift speeds – I love the aggressive blip on downshifts, but I hate the ‘torque surge’ (aka jerk or thump) on upshifts. So I mainly use S1, which I find both fast and smooth. In my ‘M settings’ I use S3.
tforth asked whether the M3 has brakes that will last. No. I think I have previously posted here that after a brief track evening on the Bedford West circuit I needed new disks as well as pads – not allowed under warranty as BMW say all track use is outside the warranty.
waremark
September 27, 2008Alan said: “If you are testing the m3 DCT, maybe you could comment on the shift delay in the transmission when using the fastest shift speeds. I know this has been brought up by several owners on the bmw boards.”
I haven’t seen these comments, what are they and where would I look for them? I don’t use the fast shift speeds – I love the aggressive blip on downshifts, but I hate the ‘torque surge’ (aka jerk or thump) on upshifts. So I mainly use S1, which I find both fast and smooth. In my ‘M settings’ I use S3.
tforth asked whether the M3 has brakes that will last. No. I think I have previously posted here that after a brief track evening on the Bedford West circuit I needed new disks as well as pads – not allowed under warranty as BMW say all track use is outside the warranty.
PeteW
September 27, 2008I love the idea of comparing the three super-saloons to a similarly priced two car set-up. Especially when you consider that, with £52k in your back pocket, you could have an E39 M5 and (with only a small stretch) a delivery mileage 2008 Exige S with the Performance Pack.
A no brainer, surely?
PeteW
September 27, 2008I love the idea of comparing the three super-saloons to a similarly priced two car set-up. Especially when you consider that, with £52k in your back pocket, you could have an E39 M5 and (with only a small stretch) a delivery mileage 2008 Exige S with the Performance Pack.
A no brainer, surely?
JosJ
September 27, 2008I also think you should include the RS4. The RS4 is the car the others were looking at while developing the their new cars. The RS4 put the benchmark over the 400bhp level so it will be an interesting watch.
Greetings,
Jos (Holland)
JosJ
September 27, 2008I also think you should include the RS4. The RS4 is the car the others were looking at while developing the their new cars. The RS4 put the benchmark over the 400bhp level so it will be an interesting watch.
Greetings,
Jos (Holland)
Alan
September 28, 2008For waremark:
The comments I mentioned above I initially read on m3post boards. In addition, when test driving the car myself, I found this to be an issue. The older e46 m3 with SMG was more responsive, in that when you pulled the paddle, the car shifted right away. The new DCT does actually change gear faster, but despite this fact, when you are in s5 mode for example and you pull the paddle, you can actually count a second or so before you feel the “surge” and the car actually shifts up. The shift itself is near instantaneous, but it takes a second after the paddle is pulled to actually occur. Ironically, when you lower the shift speed, to say s1 or s2, you get little or no “surge”, but also no delay. So it seems the delay between asking for a shift and getting one is caused by the artificial surge. Otherwise, from my experience, its a great transmission.
This is shaping up to be a great test.
Alan
September 28, 2008For waremark:
The comments I mentioned above I initially read on m3post boards. In addition, when test driving the car myself, I found this to be an issue. The older e46 m3 with SMG was more responsive, in that when you pulled the paddle, the car shifted right away. The new DCT does actually change gear faster, but despite this fact, when you are in s5 mode for example and you pull the paddle, you can actually count a second or so before you feel the “surge” and the car actually shifts up. The shift itself is near instantaneous, but it takes a second after the paddle is pulled to actually occur. Ironically, when you lower the shift speed, to say s1 or s2, you get little or no “surge”, but also no delay. So it seems the delay between asking for a shift and getting one is caused by the artificial surge. Otherwise, from my experience, its a great transmission.
This is shaping up to be a great test.
Derek Gibson
September 28, 2008Include the RS4, cover practicle issues like fuel economy and also how do the cars run on normal unleaded. Even Chris H recognises fuel costs are a real issue today
Derek Gibson
September 28, 2008Include the RS4, cover practicle issues like fuel economy and also how do the cars run on normal unleaded. Even Chris H recognises fuel costs are a real issue today
david182bhp
September 28, 2008the m3 was slightly behind the rs4 in development and bmw used it (i am sure) as a benchmark. it would only be right to include it in the judgment. besides it could be argued that the merc and the lexus aren’t going to be used by owners in the same sort of way that the bmw and rs4 will be.
how about this- a group of international terrorists jump in an m3 in central paris to get away from you and your mate jean reno.you look to your left to see what to pursue them in and there’s the merc, the lexus and an rs4. what would you choose….
david182bhp
September 28, 2008the m3 was slightly behind the rs4 in development and bmw used it (i am sure) as a benchmark. it would only be right to include it in the judgment. besides it could be argued that the merc and the lexus aren’t going to be used by owners in the same sort of way that the bmw and rs4 will be.
how about this- a group of international terrorists jump in an m3 in central paris to get away from you and your mate jean reno.you look to your left to see what to pursue them in and there’s the merc, the lexus and an rs4. what would you choose….
Richard - DR
September 28, 2008A Peugeot 405 V6 of course (or was that the car that got flipped by the RPG?)
Richard - DR
September 28, 2008A Peugeot 405 V6 of course (or was that the car that got flipped by the RPG?)
Shawn Malizio
September 29, 2008Audi RS4 please….
Shawn Malizio
September 29, 2008Audi RS4 please….
Charlie
September 29, 2008I think it would be good review if you managed to bring along a 335 saloon (manual if your M3 is manual), a C350 and an IS350 to be compared against their performance versions. I’m tired of the regular comparison of just the sports version. I want to know how much they’re improved over their lesser siblings aside from just straight line performance. Maybe compare lap times and bring people who actually own the regular versions along for their opinions about the difference in performance.
Charlie
September 29, 2008I think it would be good review if you managed to bring along a 335 saloon (manual if your M3 is manual), a C350 and an IS350 to be compared against their performance versions. I’m tired of the regular comparison of just the sports version. I want to know how much they’re improved over their lesser siblings aside from just straight line performance. Maybe compare lap times and bring people who actually own the regular versions along for their opinions about the difference in performance.
Bobby Light
September 29, 2008Include the RS4 but don’t do any silly 0-62mph sprints, there irrelevant, something like 0-155mph would be a better test, from what I hear…
Bobby Light
September 29, 2008Include the RS4 but don’t do any silly 0-62mph sprints, there irrelevant, something like 0-155mph would be a better test, from what I hear…
Charles Martin - Bassett
September 30, 2008Personally i do not think the RS4 should be included in this feature. This is because it is a previous generation model so is a bit unfair to compare it with the newer more developed cars. Also it would be nice to see a rear driver shoot out, which leads me on to my next point. I would like to see a drifting contest to see which car is the most controlable and also how they react when at there limits.
Charles Martin - Bassett
September 30, 2008Personally i do not think the RS4 should be included in this feature. This is because it is a previous generation model so is a bit unfair to compare it with the newer more developed cars. Also it would be nice to see a rear driver shoot out, which leads me on to my next point. I would like to see a drifting contest to see which car is the most controlable and also how they react when at there limits.
Dário Barreiro
October 1, 20081)How do you compare power delivery along the rev range?
The best at low rpms, mid range and at the top?
2) Yes you should! To see how much have/(not) things evolve in the other cars!
Dário Barreiro
October 1, 20081)How do you compare power delivery along the rev range?
The best at low rpms, mid range and at the top?
2) Yes you should! To see how much have/(not) things evolve in the other cars!
judah777
October 2, 2008I would like to know how the M3 Saloon compares to 335i M Sport Saloon?…….in terms of everyday usability for the average to above average driver…..is it really worth spending that extra 15K pounds?…..especially considering the relative fuel-effeciency of the 335i and that even if you buy an aftermarket Brake-upgrade and LSD you will still be no where near M3 money.
The Audi RS4 should definitely be included…….a used example represents excellent value….relative to spending 50K pounds on a new M3 or C63.
judah777
October 2, 2008I would like to know how the M3 Saloon compares to 335i M Sport Saloon?…….in terms of everyday usability for the average to above average driver…..is it really worth spending that extra 15K pounds?…..especially considering the relative fuel-effeciency of the 335i and that even if you buy an aftermarket Brake-upgrade and LSD you will still be no where near M3 money.
The Audi RS4 should definitely be included…….a used example represents excellent value….relative to spending 50K pounds on a new M3 or C63.
Rob
October 5, 20081) why not the M3 saloon? then you have only Saloons
2) No RS4. Wait for the new one.
Rob
October 5, 20081) why not the M3 saloon? then you have only Saloons
2) No RS4. Wait for the new one.
waremark
October 6, 2008“Alan said:For waremark:
The comments I mentioned above …
Thanks for that Alan. Obviously the reason I don’t experience this delay is because I don’t use S4 or above – as mentioned I don’t like the surge. In the settings I use I seem to get both fast response and fast change. I wonder how much if anything is sacrificed in lap times by not using S5/6?
Hayden
October 6, 2008Not related to this story in particular, but would love to see a comparison of the different M3 generations, from E30 right through to the current.
Would be interesting to map their progression (horsepower, technology, safety) and regression (weight, dynamics, etc).
Hayden
October 7, 2008Not related to this story in particular, but would love to see a comparison of the different M3 generations, from E30 right through to the current.
Would be interesting to map their progression (horsepower, technology, safety) and regression (weight, dynamics, etc).
waremark
October 7, 2008“Alan said:For waremark:
The comments I mentioned above …
Thanks for that Alan. Obviously the reason I don’t experience this delay is because I don’t use S4 or above – as mentioned I don’t like the surge. In the settings I use I seem to get both fast response and fast change. I wonder how much if anything is sacrificed in lap times by not using S5/6?
Steve (DR)
October 7, 2008waremark, that’s what we found when we first tested the M3 DCT, whereas I would always drive my M3 CSL in S5 (or perhaps S6) I didn’t like driving DCT in anything more than S4 (due to the unpleasant surge that was introduced at these higher settings). DCT is better in auto mode than SMGIII, but I still prefer SMG for changing manually.
Steve (DR)
October 7, 2008waremark, that’s what we found when we first tested the M3 DCT, whereas I would always drive my M3 CSL in S5 (or perhaps S6) I didn’t like driving DCT in anything more than S4 (due to the unpleasant surge that was introduced at these higher settings). DCT is better in auto mode than SMGIII, but I still prefer SMG for changing manually.
stuart
October 7, 2008Sorry I know that this isn’t quite relevant but I wasn’t sure where else to post this. I would love to see some reports / reviews on the facelift E90 manual 330d M Sport, (not SE which everyone else seems to have driven), simple reason being that I have one on order for delivery end of October. To link back into this thread possibly you could include one in your test as a comparison to show, (hopefully for me what with this being my first ever diesel), how far diesels have improved and give the more “everyman” a feel for what they are missing out on by not being able to afford one of these uber saloons.
I am sure you have seen elsewhere the in jokes about chipped 335d’s and thus logic could suggest that the inclusion of one of these would be more relevant but as the 335d is only available as an autos the facelifted and now more powerful new 330d could make for an interesting inclusion in the article, (or at least for me given my personal situation). You could obviously also include your longterm and chipped E320 to give a further comparison of how these cheaper diesels compare.
As a final passing shot, if none of the above seems relevant or of interest what about a comparison of your longterm E320 and a facelift 330d M Sport? I think by now you probably get the idea that I would appreciate some comments on my forthcoming car from the people I have for many years, (obviously in your previous incarnations) trusted as the best, most informed source for petrolhead related subjects.
stuart
October 7, 2008Sorry I know that this isn’t quite relevant but I wasn’t sure where else to post this. I would love to see some reports / reviews on the facelift E90 manual 330d M Sport, (not SE which everyone else seems to have driven), simple reason being that I have one on order for delivery end of October. To link back into this thread possibly you could include one in your test as a comparison to show, (hopefully for me what with this being my first ever diesel), how far diesels have improved and give the more “everyman” a feel for what they are missing out on by not being able to afford one of these uber saloons.
I am sure you have seen elsewhere the in jokes about chipped 335d’s and thus logic could suggest that the inclusion of one of these would be more relevant but as the 335d is only available as an autos the facelifted and now more powerful new 330d could make for an interesting inclusion in the article, (or at least for me given my personal situation). You could obviously also include your longterm and chipped E320 to give a further comparison of how these cheaper diesels compare.
As a final passing shot, if none of the above seems relevant or of interest what about a comparison of your longterm E320 and a facelift 330d M Sport? I think by now you probably get the idea that I would appreciate some comments on my forthcoming car from the people I have for many years, (obviously in your previous incarnations) trusted as the best, most informed source for petrolhead related subjects.
steven cooke
October 7, 2008The old RS4 has been done to death in my opinion and we all know that it is a very credible piece of kit, time to move on (Audi have done it by only doing a limited run) and concentrate on what is new(ish) and available now.
M3..CAMG..LexISF only
steven cooke
October 7, 2008The old RS4 has been done to death in my opinion and we all know that it is a very credible piece of kit, time to move on (Audi have done it by only doing a limited run) and concentrate on what is new(ish) and available now.
M3..CAMG..LexISF only
Steve
October 8, 2008Stuart, the chaps are out filming this test over the next few days, but I have passed on your request and we will consider how best to answer it.
Perhaps my perspective might also assist. Prior to setting up DR I owned cars with two of the finest V8 engines in production today; an ML63 and an RS4. I replaced them both with my twin-turbo diesel X6. This is my first diesel and their has been a sweepstake running that I’d be luckly to last a week before jumping back into a V8.
Thus far (4 months on) I am pleased to say that my V8 addiction is being kept at bay. It doesn’t sound anywhere near as nice, and I still find the gravely noise at low revs to be irritating but the one benefit that overcomes this is how cleanly it pulls in a single gear. My ML63 for instance was monstrously fast but at low revs it could feel quite slow if caught in the wrong gear. My RS4 was better in this respect, but still needed a good hoof of the throttle before feeling properly quick.
A good modern turbo diesel combined with an auto box feels quick immediately without being over-sensitive to throttle inputs, this makes driving around in busy traffic effortless but ultimately still fun.
The conclusion I arrive at is that I would still choose a powerful petrol/V8 for a fun car, but for daily use the turbo diesel delivers better usable performance for more of the time.
Steve
October 8, 2008Stuart, the chaps are out filming this test over the next few days, but I have passed on your request and we will consider how best to answer it.
Perhaps my perspective might also assist. Prior to setting up DR I owned cars with two of the finest V8 engines in production today; an ML63 and an RS4. I replaced them both with my twin-turbo diesel X6. This is my first diesel and their has been a sweepstake running that I’d be luckly to last a week before jumping back into a V8.
Thus far (4 months on) I am pleased to say that my V8 addiction is being kept at bay. It doesn’t sound anywhere near as nice, and I still find the gravely noise at low revs to be irritating but the one benefit that overcomes this is how cleanly it pulls in a single gear. My ML63 for instance was monstrously fast but at low revs it could feel quite slow if caught in the wrong gear. My RS4 was better in this respect, but still needed a good hoof of the throttle before feeling properly quick.
A good modern turbo diesel combined with an auto box feels quick immediately without being over-sensitive to throttle inputs, this makes driving around in busy traffic effortless but ultimately still fun.
The conclusion I arrive at is that I would still choose a powerful petrol/V8 for a fun car, but for daily use the turbo diesel delivers better usable performance for more of the time.
Steve
October 8, 2008Stuart, the chaps are out filming this test over the next few days, but I have passed on your request and we will consider how best to answer it.
Perhaps my perspective might also assist. Prior to setting up DR I owned cars with two of the finest V8 engines in production today; an ML63 and an RS4. I replaced them both with my twin-turbo diesel X6. This is my first diesel and their has been a sweepstake running that I’d be luckly to last a week before jumping back into a V8.
Thus far (4 months on) I am pleased to say that my V8 addiction is being kept at bay. It doesn’t sound anywhere near as nice, and I still find the gravely noise at low revs to be irritating but the one benefit that overcomes this is how cleanly it pulls in a single gear. My ML63 for instance was monstrously fast but at low revs it could feel quite slow if caught in the wrong gear. My RS4 was better in this respect, but still needed a good hoof of the throttle before feeling properly quick.
A good modern turbo diesel combined with an auto box feels quick immediately without being over-sensitive to throttle inputs, this makes driving around in busy traffic effortless but ultimately still fun.
The conclusion I arrive at is that I would still choose a powerful petrol/V8 for a fun car, but for daily use the turbo diesel delivers better usable performance for more of the time.
stuart
October 8, 2008Dear Steve,
Thanks for the reply, very interesting to see that you have personally gone down the diesel route. I am changing from a standard 2004 Impreza WRX sportwagon to the E90 330d MSport so if anything I should see a performance gain, hopefully more fun as switching from 4xd to rear xd plus quite importantly I am expecting a huge improvement in fuel consumption.
I imagine given the time frame it wouldn’t be possible to include a BMW 330d MSport in your comparison, and as the Merc you have as a longtermer is an E class, plus an estate and by appearance not the sportiest version I doubt its inclusion would be particularly relevant. Now if only the test was happening in a few weeks time after I get my car then potentially you could have used my vehicle in the test.
stuart
October 8, 2008Dear Steve,
Thanks for the reply, very interesting to see that you have personally gone down the diesel route. I am changing from a standard 2004 Impreza WRX sportwagon to the E90 330d MSport so if anything I should see a performance gain, hopefully more fun as switching from 4xd to rear xd plus quite importantly I am expecting a huge improvement in fuel consumption.
I imagine given the time frame it wouldn’t be possible to include a BMW 330d MSport in your comparison, and as the Merc you have as a longtermer is an E class, plus an estate and by appearance not the sportiest version I doubt its inclusion would be particularly relevant. Now if only the test was happening in a few weeks time after I get my car then potentially you could have used my vehicle in the test.
stuart
October 8, 2008Dear Steve,
Thanks for the reply, very interesting to see that you have personally gone down the diesel route. I am changing from a standard 2004 Impreza WRX sportwagon to the E90 330d MSport so if anything I should see a performance gain, hopefully more fun as switching from 4xd to rear xd plus quite importantly I am expecting a huge improvement in fuel consumption.
I imagine given the time frame it wouldn’t be possible to include a BMW 330d MSport in your comparison, and as the Merc you have as a longtermer is an E class, plus an estate and by appearance not the sportiest version I doubt its inclusion would be particularly relevant. Now if only the test was happening in a few weeks time after I get my car then potentially you could have used my vehicle in the test.
Just_me
October 10, 2008Whatever the outcome is, the M3 is my choice. I love it. It looks good, its fast and handles like a dream.
Just_me
October 10, 2008Whatever the outcome is, the M3 is my choice. I love it. It looks good, its fast and handles like a dream.
Just_me
October 10, 2008Whatever the outcome is, the M3 is my choice. I love it. It looks good, its fast and handles like a dream.
Alan
October 10, 2008From the preview it looks very like you haven’t included the RS4, or anything else for that matter. Any particular reason or could you not get hold of one ???
Alan
October 10, 2008From the preview it looks very like you haven’t included the RS4, or anything else for that matter. Any particular reason or could you not get hold of one ???
Alan
October 10, 2008From the preview it looks very like you haven’t included the RS4, or anything else for that matter. Any particular reason or could you not get hold of one ???
Steve
October 10, 2008Alan, we included an RS4 in the review but did not bring it together with the other cars for our Silverstone laps (as seen in the preview) which were recorded yesterday. We had always planned on a mix of roads and conditions, and cars such as the RS4 or the E39 M5 are not available from press fleets any more, so its a little unfair to compare them empirically with factory fresh press cars.
We brought my M3 CSL along for some further context, which I will write about seperately, so we have had plenty of opportunity to compare against different markers.
Apart from Tuesday, which was a bit of a wash-out, we spent a good week with the cars and despite our familiarity with most of them, we still gained a new perspective on each of them.
Let’s wait until we publish the feature early next week, but I wonder if you can guess which lapped Silverstone quickest and what it’s time was…
Steve
October 10, 2008Alan, we included an RS4 in the review but did not bring it together with the other cars for our Silverstone laps (as seen in the preview) which were recorded yesterday. We had always planned on a mix of roads and conditions, and cars such as the RS4 or the E39 M5 are not available from press fleets any more, so its a little unfair to compare them empirically with factory fresh press cars.
We brought my M3 CSL along for some further context, which I will write about seperately, so we have had plenty of opportunity to compare against different markers.
Apart from Tuesday, which was a bit of a wash-out, we spent a good week with the cars and despite our familiarity with most of them, we still gained a new perspective on each of them.
Let’s wait until we publish the feature early next week, but I wonder if you can guess which lapped Silverstone quickest and what it’s time was…
Steve
October 11, 2008Alan, we included an RS4 in the review but did not bring it together with the other cars for our Silverstone laps (as seen in the preview) which were recorded yesterday. We had always planned on a mix of roads and conditions, and cars such as the RS4 or the E39 M5 are not available from press fleets any more, so its a little unfair to compare them empirically with factory fresh press cars.
We brought my M3 CSL along for some further context, which I will write about seperately, so we have had plenty of opportunity to compare against different markers.
Apart from Tuesday, which was a bit of a wash-out, we spent a good week with the cars and despite our familiarity with most of them, we still gained a new perspective on each of them.
Let’s wait until we publish the feature early next week, but I wonder if you can guess which lapped Silverstone quickest and what it’s time was…
Alan
October 11, 2008Thanks Steve, can’t wait to see it. I reckon the M3 must have been quickest on the track, but on your washout tuesday the RS4 would have been untouchable on track or road
Alan
October 11, 2008Thanks Steve, can’t wait to see it. I reckon the M3 must have been quickest on the track, but on your washout tuesday the RS4 would have been untouchable on track or road
Alan
October 11, 2008Thanks Steve, can’t wait to see it. I reckon the M3 must have been quickest on the track, but on your washout tuesday the RS4 would have been untouchable on track or road
jl123
October 11, 2008“we spent a good week with the cars and despite our familiarity with most of them, we still gained a new perspective on each of them.”
Steve glad you finally (5 months later) took the advice! All major tests should take place over at least a week. Indeed no-one does this. As your beginning to see its quality not quantity. Leave that to evo/car/autoc.
jl123
October 11, 2008“we spent a good week with the cars and despite our familiarity with most of them, we still gained a new perspective on each of them.”
Steve glad you finally (5 months later) took the advice! All major tests should take place over at least a week. Indeed no-one does this. As your beginning to see its quality not quantity. Leave that to evo/car/autoc.
jl123
October 11, 2008“we spent a good week with the cars and despite our familiarity with most of them, we still gained a new perspective on each of them.”
Steve glad you finally (5 months later) took the advice! All major tests should take place over at least a week. Indeed no-one does this. As your beginning to see its quality not quantity. Leave that to evo/car/autoc.
Steve
October 11, 2008I fully agree with you, Dickie and I travelled down to a business meeting on Friday in the C63, doing all the things that a regular commuter would do, and Chris is keeping a few of the cars over this weekend to drive back to back with his E39 M5. We’ve really lived with these cars and the test couldn’t have been closer, each has it’s virtues and only by testing them across a variety of uses were we able to unearth new insights.
We often find that living with the cars over a weekend is just as illuminating as conducting the road test.
Steve
October 11, 2008I fully agree with you, Dickie and I travelled down to a business meeting on Friday in the C63, doing all the things that a regular commuter would do, and Chris is keeping a few of the cars over this weekend to drive back to back with his E39 M5. We’ve really lived with these cars and the test couldn’t have been closer, each has it’s virtues and only by testing them across a variety of uses were we able to unearth new insights.
We often find that living with the cars over a weekend is just as illuminating as conducting the road test.
Steve
October 11, 2008I fully agree with you, Dickie and I travelled down to a business meeting on Friday in the C63, doing all the things that a regular commuter would do, and Chris is keeping a few of the cars over this weekend to drive back to back with his E39 M5. We’ve really lived with these cars and the test couldn’t have been closer, each has it’s virtues and only by testing them across a variety of uses were we able to unearth new insights.
We often find that living with the cars over a weekend is just as illuminating as conducting the road test.
Steve (DR)
October 16, 2008Well, the feature is now published and we will upload the telemetry and feature videos over the next few days.
We also collected some cracking sound files, so these will be available to download and do with as you want when we launch our new Audio pages shortly.
Have a read of the feature and let us know what you think (you always do!). Hopefully you feel we have listened to your suggestions and can spot your influence on this epic story.
Steve (DR)
October 16, 2008Well, the feature is now published and we will upload the telemetry and feature videos over the next few days.
We also collected some cracking sound files, so these will be available to download and do with as you want when we launch our new Audio pages shortly.
Have a read of the feature and let us know what you think (you always do!). Hopefully you feel we have listened to your suggestions and can spot your influence on this epic story.
Steve (DR)
October 16, 2008Well, the feature is now published and we will upload the telemetry and feature videos over the next few days.
We also collected some cracking sound files, so these will be available to download and do with as you want when we launch our new Audio pages shortly.
Have a read of the feature and let us know what you think (you always do!). Hopefully you feel we have listened to your suggestions and can spot your influence on this epic story.
Mark Williams
October 20, 2008Good feature.
If the finances stretch to it (50k or thereabouts) I’d like a C63 AMG around about next summer. Have looked at them already. What did you think of the interior quality? An obvious attack I know but given the price the dashboard finish is lousy.
Thought I’d post a few thoughts on the content also…
First, it is of course inevitable that cars like these are not as lithe and pointy as their predecessors. Blame regulations but also our insatiable desire for more toys for that. That isn’t a bad thing though necessarily – is just an indication of progress. I know people bemoan the loss of feel one could enjoy at the wheel of the E30 M3. But I wonder how many would REALLY pass up the current one for a smidge more feedback…
Second, I’m not sure that the credit crunch is going to have a longer-lasting impact upon the production of such machinery. The current ‘crisis’ has been hyped to the gunwhales by the media and when it all dies down and we have a level playing field again, we’ll all be rooting around for something else to worry about. So I don’t think we should be sitting in our hyper saloons and worrying about the end just yet.
Finally – really does make you wonder whether it is worth sinking 50 large ones into a new saloon when a 1/5th of the price gets you basically the same package (and I maintain for 85% of the time, the same amount of thrills).
You’re doing a great job with this site you know
Yes sounds incredibly cynical I know, but I really do hope you go far
Mark Williams
October 20, 2008Good feature.
If the finances stretch to it (50k or thereabouts) I’d like a C63 AMG around about next summer. Have looked at them already. What did you think of the interior quality? An obvious attack I know but given the price the dashboard finish is lousy.
Thought I’d post a few thoughts on the content also…
First, it is of course inevitable that cars like these are not as lithe and pointy as their predecessors. Blame regulations but also our insatiable desire for more toys for that. That isn’t a bad thing though necessarily – is just an indication of progress. I know people bemoan the loss of feel one could enjoy at the wheel of the E30 M3. But I wonder how many would REALLY pass up the current one for a smidge more feedback…
Second, I’m not sure that the credit crunch is going to have a longer-lasting impact upon the production of such machinery. The current ‘crisis’ has been hyped to the gunwhales by the media and when it all dies down and we have a level playing field again, we’ll all be rooting around for something else to worry about. So I don’t think we should be sitting in our hyper saloons and worrying about the end just yet.
Finally – really does make you wonder whether it is worth sinking 50 large ones into a new saloon when a 1/5th of the price gets you basically the same package (and I maintain for 85% of the time, the same amount of thrills).
You’re doing a great job with this site you know
Yes sounds incredibly cynical I know, but I really do hope you go far
Mark Williams
October 20, 2008Good feature.
If the finances stretch to it (50k or thereabouts) I’d like a C63 AMG around about next summer. Have looked at them already. What did you think of the interior quality? An obvious attack I know but given the price the dashboard finish is lousy.
Thought I’d post a few thoughts on the content also…
First, it is of course inevitable that cars like these are not as lithe and pointy as their predecessors. Blame regulations but also our insatiable desire for more toys for that. That isn’t a bad thing though necessarily – is just an indication of progress. I know people bemoan the loss of feel one could enjoy at the wheel of the E30 M3. But I wonder how many would REALLY pass up the current one for a smidge more feedback…
Second, I’m not sure that the credit crunch is going to have a longer-lasting impact upon the production of such machinery. The current ‘crisis’ has been hyped to the gunwhales by the media and when it all dies down and we have a level playing field again, we’ll all be rooting around for something else to worry about. So I don’t think we should be sitting in our hyper saloons and worrying about the end just yet.
Finally – really does make you wonder whether it is worth sinking 50 large ones into a new saloon when a 1/5th of the price gets you basically the same package (and I maintain for 85% of the time, the same amount of thrills).
You’re doing a great job with this site you know
Yes sounds incredibly cynical I know, but I really do hope you go far
waremark
October 21, 2008“I’d like a C63 AMG around about next summer. Have looked at them already. What did you think of the interior quality? An obvious attack I know but given the price the dashboard finish is lousy.”
Spent the weekend in Wales with M3/C63/RS4. Having been disappointed with the interior of the base C class, I thought the AMG with Command had the best interior of these three – really very good. Combined with the fabulous soundtrack and the slightly extrovert exterior, that gave it the greatest sense of occasion of these three cars.
“First, it is of course inevitable that cars like these are not as lithe and pointy as their predecessors.”
Don’t agree. Comparing E92 M3 with E46, and AMG C63 with C32 (never drove a 55) I consider that both handle and steer better than previous versions. And as for the RS4 – isn’t this the first ever Audi to handle and steer well?
Having also driven a C2S last week, I don’t think the M3 gives away anything in capability or enjoyment to the pre-facelift 911 (have not driven a new one).
waremark
October 21, 2008“I’d like a C63 AMG around about next summer. Have looked at them already. What did you think of the interior quality? An obvious attack I know but given the price the dashboard finish is lousy.”
Spent the weekend in Wales with M3/C63/RS4. Having been disappointed with the interior of the base C class, I thought the AMG with Command had the best interior of these three – really very good. Combined with the fabulous soundtrack and the slightly extrovert exterior, that gave it the greatest sense of occasion of these three cars.
“First, it is of course inevitable that cars like these are not as lithe and pointy as their predecessors.”
Don’t agree. Comparing E92 M3 with E46, and AMG C63 with C32 (never drove a 55) I consider that both handle and steer better than previous versions. And as for the RS4 – isn’t this the first ever Audi to handle and steer well?
Having also driven a C2S last week, I don’t think the M3 gives away anything in capability or enjoyment to the pre-facelift 911 (have not driven a new one).
waremark
October 21, 2008“I’d like a C63 AMG around about next summer. Have looked at them already. What did you think of the interior quality? An obvious attack I know but given the price the dashboard finish is lousy.”
Spent the weekend in Wales with M3/C63/RS4. Having been disappointed with the interior of the base C class, I thought the AMG with Command had the best interior of these three – really very good. Combined with the fabulous soundtrack and the slightly extrovert exterior, that gave it the greatest sense of occasion of these three cars.
“First, it is of course inevitable that cars like these are not as lithe and pointy as their predecessors.”
Don’t agree. Comparing E92 M3 with E46, and AMG C63 with C32 (never drove a 55) I consider that both handle and steer better than previous versions. And as for the RS4 – isn’t this the first ever Audi to handle and steer well?
Having also driven a C2S last week, I don’t think the M3 gives away anything in capability or enjoyment to the pre-facelift 911 (have not driven a new one).
waremark
October 21, 2008Naturally as an M3 owner I agree with the conclusion – M3 has best chassis, Merc’s engine has the edge. The C63 in our group also had the LSD/Sports suspension package (dealers don’t seem to agree that you can have the LSD without the Sports suspension) and it was simply too hard for the roads – without achieving as much sharpness and control as the M3.
But why does Steve Sutcliffe prefer the Lexus to the M3?
waremark
October 21, 2008Naturally as an M3 owner I agree with the conclusion – M3 has best chassis, Merc’s engine has the edge. The C63 in our group also had the LSD/Sports suspension package (dealers don’t seem to agree that you can have the LSD without the Sports suspension) and it was simply too hard for the roads – without achieving as much sharpness and control as the M3.
But why does Steve Sutcliffe prefer the Lexus to the M3?
waremark
October 21, 2008Naturally as an M3 owner I agree with the conclusion – M3 has best chassis, Merc’s engine has the edge. The C63 in our group also had the LSD/Sports suspension package (dealers don’t seem to agree that you can have the LSD without the Sports suspension) and it was simply too hard for the roads – without achieving as much sharpness and control as the M3.
But why does Steve Sutcliffe prefer the Lexus to the M3?
Mark Williams
October 21, 2008The one thing that kills response and impacts acceleration is weight. Everbody agrees on that I think.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not complaining about 400bhp. But for me at least, the original versions will always be more honest than the later cars. They are brilliant – but they are compromised. They are the best of the modern times, but that does not make them insurmountable – not when compared to the original concept.
I don’t agree that, if it’s a driver’s tool you’re after, modern technology is always the answer.
Mark Williams
October 21, 2008The one thing that kills response and impacts acceleration is weight. Everbody agrees on that I think.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not complaining about 400bhp. But for me at least, the original versions will always be more honest than the later cars. They are brilliant – but they are compromised. They are the best of the modern times, but that does not make them insurmountable – not when compared to the original concept.
I don’t agree that, if it’s a driver’s tool you’re after, modern technology is always the answer.
Mark Williams
October 21, 2008The one thing that kills response and impacts acceleration is weight. Everbody agrees on that I think.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not complaining about 400bhp. But for me at least, the original versions will always be more honest than the later cars. They are brilliant – but they are compromised. They are the best of the modern times, but that does not make them insurmountable – not when compared to the original concept.
I don’t agree that, if it’s a driver’s tool you’re after, modern technology is always the answer.
jl123
October 21, 2008All in all I think this was a good test. I am a little disappointed that drivers as good as Jethro and Richard were not allowed/or did not want to include their opinions. Indeed from their prior lives they were involved in a test of some similar cars about which evo wrote:
“The CSL is the most firmly suspended of all the remaining cars, yet the chassis tune never feels harsh or jarring. Its steering is a revelation, too — light effort yet without a millimeter of wasted motion and brimming with deliciously resolved feel for the road. Turn and the CSL changes tack instantly: no body roll or even compliance in the suspension bushings to blur the message, just lightning response, terrific precision and masses of cornering grip. Point to point, the E92 M3 struggles to stay in touch with this car, despite its advantage of straight-line speed. But then, the E92 M3 also feels as if it weighs about half as much again as the E46 M3 CSL and has been given a slug of anesthetic besides.”
…so why the CSL- which Steve actually owns, was not included in this test defy’s logic. That it should be compared at some point should go without saying.
jl123
October 21, 2008All in all I think this was a good test. I am a little disappointed that drivers as good as Jethro and Richard were not allowed/or did not want to include their opinions. Indeed from their prior lives they were involved in a test of some similar cars about which evo wrote:
“The CSL is the most firmly suspended of all the remaining cars, yet the chassis tune never feels harsh or jarring. Its steering is a revelation, too — light effort yet without a millimeter of wasted motion and brimming with deliciously resolved feel for the road. Turn and the CSL changes tack instantly: no body roll or even compliance in the suspension bushings to blur the message, just lightning response, terrific precision and masses of cornering grip. Point to point, the E92 M3 struggles to stay in touch with this car, despite its advantage of straight-line speed. But then, the E92 M3 also feels as if it weighs about half as much again as the E46 M3 CSL and has been given a slug of anesthetic besides.”
…so why the CSL- which Steve actually owns, was not included in this test defy’s logic. That it should be compared at some point should go without saying.
jl123
October 21, 2008All in all I think this was a good test. I am a little disappointed that drivers as good as Jethro and Richard were not allowed/or did not want to include their opinions. Indeed from their prior lives they were involved in a test of some similar cars about which evo wrote:
“The CSL is the most firmly suspended of all the remaining cars, yet the chassis tune never feels harsh or jarring. Its steering is a revelation, too — light effort yet without a millimeter of wasted motion and brimming with deliciously resolved feel for the road. Turn and the CSL changes tack instantly: no body roll or even compliance in the suspension bushings to blur the message, just lightning response, terrific precision and masses of cornering grip. Point to point, the E92 M3 struggles to stay in touch with this car, despite its advantage of straight-line speed. But then, the E92 M3 also feels as if it weighs about half as much again as the E46 M3 CSL and has been given a slug of anesthetic besides.”
…so why the CSL- which Steve actually owns, was not included in this test defy’s logic. That it should be compared at some point should go without saying.
Steve (DR)
October 21, 2008I did bring my M3 CSL along to the Silverstone session (see pic below), but I still haven’t had time to get it sorted properly so it wasn’t really fair to compare it.
I will create a long-term group in the community for my M3 CSL and start a more indepth conversation on its ailments, but suffice to say I have replaced nearly every moving part in the suspension and the only part left is the front-dampers (which are next on my list), it also hasn’t been aligned during the half-dozen or so times it’s been at Murketts (to have wheel bearings, RTABs, steering rack, rear dampers etc replaced) so it feels truly out of sorts.
Nevertheless I ran it round Silverstone for 2 flying laps and managed a 2 min 19, which was only a second behind the C63 and I am confident there was at least a good 4-5 seconds being lost due to its very ‘un-CSL’ like chassis behaviour, so a re-run is definitely in order. We took the Vbox and cameras along for the ride, so I will see if I can post it up sometime soon.
Driving along behind Dickie in the C63 earlier that day, my CSL was almost as quick in a straight line but I was most surprised by being able to hear the C63 accelerating ‘above’ the CSL’s induction blare (that tells you how loud the C63 is).
So, don’t worry the CSL more than holds its own in this company, it would be the fastest around a track and still feels plenty quick in a straight line although the C63 is truly epic in that regard.
Steve (DR)
October 21, 2008I did bring my M3 CSL along to the Silverstone session (see pic below), but I still haven’t had time to get it sorted properly so it wasn’t really fair to compare it.
I will create a long-term group in the community for my M3 CSL and start a more indepth conversation on its ailments, but suffice to say I have replaced nearly every moving part in the suspension and the only part left is the front-dampers (which are next on my list), it also hasn’t been aligned during the half-dozen or so times it’s been at Murketts (to have wheel bearings, RTABs, steering rack, rear dampers etc replaced) so it feels truly out of sorts.
Nevertheless I ran it round Silverstone for 2 flying laps and managed a 2 min 19, which was only a second behind the C63 and I am confident there was at least a good 4-5 seconds being lost due to its very ‘un-CSL’ like chassis behaviour, so a re-run is definitely in order. We took the Vbox and cameras along for the ride, so I will see if I can post it up sometime soon.
Driving along behind Dickie in the C63 earlier that day, my CSL was almost as quick in a straight line but I was most surprised by being able to hear the C63 accelerating ‘above’ the CSL’s induction blare (that tells you how loud the C63 is).
So, don’t worry the CSL more than holds its own in this company, it would be the fastest around a track and still feels plenty quick in a straight line although the C63 is truly epic in that regard.
Steve (DR)
October 21, 2008I did bring my M3 CSL along to the Silverstone session (see pic below), but I still haven’t had time to get it sorted properly so it wasn’t really fair to compare it.
I will create a long-term group in the community for my M3 CSL and start a more indepth conversation on its ailments, but suffice to say I have replaced nearly every moving part in the suspension and the only part left is the front-dampers (which are next on my list), it also hasn’t been aligned during the half-dozen or so times it’s been at Murketts (to have wheel bearings, RTABs, steering rack, rear dampers etc replaced) so it feels truly out of sorts.
Nevertheless I ran it round Silverstone for 2 flying laps and managed a 2 min 19, which was only a second behind the C63 and I am confident there was at least a good 4-5 seconds being lost due to its very ‘un-CSL’ like chassis behaviour, so a re-run is definitely in order. We took the Vbox and cameras along for the ride, so I will see if I can post it up sometime soon.
Driving along behind Dickie in the C63 earlier that day, my CSL was almost as quick in a straight line but I was most surprised by being able to hear the C63 accelerating ‘above’ the CSL’s induction blare (that tells you how loud the C63 is).
So, don’t worry the CSL more than holds its own in this company, it would be the fastest around a track and still feels plenty quick in a straight line although the C63 is truly epic in that regard.
Steve Davies
May 20, 2010Comment