21.12.2008
Rallying has given us some of the greatest drivers’ cars of all time. As Subaru withdraw from the WRC, we drive a very special STi with two of rallying’s legends.
Now read the feature magazine and then let us know which is your favourite rally special.
Click the image below
RELATED: Subaru drop out of WRC – Chris’ Column
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32 Comments
Scotty
December 21, 2008Great read Jethro, very good choice of cars. Agree with bringing back Group A!!
I was going to ask Subaru have shot themselves in the foot, but being japanese surely hari-kari is more appropriate. They created the hatchback supposedly to become competitive on the WRC scene, only to pull out leaving them trying to sell a car with no competition pedigree that all the enthusiasts hate because it is such a radical departure from the norm!
Scotty
December 21, 2008Great read Jethro, very good choice of cars. Agree with bringing back Group A!!
I was going to ask Subaru have shot themselves in the foot, but being japanese surely hari-kari is more appropriate. They created the hatchback supposedly to become competitive on the WRC scene, only to pull out leaving them trying to sell a car with no competition pedigree that all the enthusiasts hate because it is such a radical departure from the norm!
Logos
December 21, 2008Good work.
Sincerely i cannot understand why you haven’t choosen also Delta Integrale.
With that car it would be perfect!!!
Logos
December 21, 2008Good work.
Sincerely i cannot understand why you haven’t choosen also Delta Integrale.
With that car it would be perfect!!!
JethroBovingdon
December 21, 2008We did look for an Integrale, but in the end I think the three cars worked out brilliantly. The quattro is where it all started, the Evo the logical conclusion of road and rallying converging and the STi the new challenger cut short before it could shine… I'm not sure what the Integrale would have added. Don't get me wrong, I love the Lancia but I reckon the quattro covered off the older heritage. Having said that a Delta S4 would have been nice…
JethroBovingdon
December 21, 2008We did look for an Integrale, but in the end I think the three cars worked out brilliantly. The quattro is where it all started, the Evo the logical conclusion of road and rallying converging and the STi the new challenger cut short before it could shine… I'm not sure what the Integrale would have added. Don't get me wrong, I love the Lancia but I reckon the quattro covered off the older heritage. Having said that a Delta S4 would have been nice…
Arthur
December 22, 2008Great story! What a fantastic car that TME. It must rank as the ultimate Evo, and hence as one of the greatest cars ever made.
Incredible that such an ugly car with such an unholy interior and an engine-note so woefully bland can be so unbelievably good to drive.
Chris buying that bargain M5 probably got most of us here thinking, but right now I’m thinking that compared to that BMW a TME is even cheaper to buy, cheaper to run and a whole heck of a lot cheaper should anything go bust.
And contrary to M-products the Evo has proper brakes as standard!
The old shape Evo and Impreza were way ahead of their time, and no cars illustrate this fact clearer than the latest generations of their kind, in that they offer no real improvement in pace or excitement, but only in interior quality and therefore weight. If you fit those trick “GT-R” Dunlops under a TME an Evo X will not see which way it went. Progress? In tyre technology, yes. The car, I don’t think so.
Thanks for a superb article, Jethro. And was the Makinen owner pleased when you got his car airborne and then smashed the rear diff and the exhaust-pipe into the Welsh tarmac with the sparks flying?
Arthur
December 22, 2008Great story! What a fantastic car that TME. It must rank as the ultimate Evo, and hence as one of the greatest cars ever made.
Incredible that such an ugly car with such an unholy interior and an engine-note so woefully bland can be so unbelievably good to drive.
Chris buying that bargain M5 probably got most of us here thinking, but right now I’m thinking that compared to that BMW a TME is even cheaper to buy, cheaper to run and a whole heck of a lot cheaper should anything go bust.
And contrary to M-products the Evo has proper brakes as standard!
The old shape Evo and Impreza were way ahead of their time, and no cars illustrate this fact clearer than the latest generations of their kind, in that they offer no real improvement in pace or excitement, but only in interior quality and therefore weight. If you fit those trick “GT-R” Dunlops under a TME an Evo X will not see which way it went. Progress? In tyre technology, yes. The car, I don’t think so.
Thanks for a superb article, Jethro. And was the Makinen owner pleased when you got his car airborne and then smashed the rear diff and the exhaust-pipe into the Welsh tarmac with the sparks flying?
Jethro Bovingdon
December 23, 2008Well, when you see a yump in an Evo there’s but one option… And thankfully the owner agrees!
Jethro Bovingdon
December 23, 2008Well, when you see a yump in an Evo there’s but one option… And thankfully the owner agrees!
Steve
December 23, 2008Would now be a good time to post links to those pictures in the Porsche social group?
Click below..
[img]http://www.drivers-republic.com/community_resource/mnl1uw3lw2z2hfihgsquhs54.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.drivers-republic.com/community_resource/fd3bh12euv3p06h5ht64xkc3.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.drivers-republic.com/community_resource/qpkmcxol7gpkhlpro64j9tbd.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.drivers-republic.com/community_resource/nzog68xssmbt0rja9bw0ht4w.jpg[/img]
Steve
December 23, 2008Would now be a good time to post links to those pictures in the Porsche social group?
Click below..
[img]http://www.drivers-republic.com/community_resource/mnl1uw3lw2z2hfihgsquhs54.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.drivers-republic.com/community_resource/fd3bh12euv3p06h5ht64xkc3.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.drivers-republic.com/community_resource/qpkmcxol7gpkhlpro64j9tbd.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.drivers-republic.com/community_resource/nzog68xssmbt0rja9bw0ht4w.jpg[/img]
Andy
December 24, 2008If you ever are looking for an Integrale. I have a 93 Evolution 2 that is totally standard. More modern stuff is quicker, roomier and better built but biy does ‘Grale make you smile!
Andy
December 24, 2008If you ever are looking for an Integrale. I have a 93 Evolution 2 that is totally standard. More modern stuff is quicker, roomier and better built but biy does ‘Grale make you smile!
jeremy
December 26, 2008Rich,
Were you on this particular journey? Funny how you guys liked the steering feel so much (and yes I remember how you liked it on the PC test and the first Evo/TT test) I wonder if this simply means that all the more modern steering systems are poor? John seems to agree on this calling all the newer Impreza’s so poor that they are hard to trust down any sort of challenging road- never “keying” into the road surface as is the term coined of recent.
On my special government sponcered pilgimage to the uk in 99′ no one much liked the house Quattro 20v on hand, indeed it didn’t even make it to the final round in Wales, no one was too impressed. At the time John told me its handling was both “inert” and “benign”. Last going back to the cars most favorable review of all: Rich had told me and wrote in PC mag back in 97/98 that on similar sodden roads at suicide speeds in comparison to the Mitsubishi evo, Subaru Impreza, R33 GT-R, and Integrale, that the Quattro was the most more reassuring to drive fast of all? Wondering how there can be such differing thinking on this one car? How does the car go from the most grip to the least? Bad tires? Was this a badly sorted car? Thoughts RichM? J
jeremy
December 26, 2008Rich,
Were you on this particular journey? Funny how you guys liked the steering feel so much (and yes I remember how you liked it on the PC test and the first Evo/TT test) I wonder if this simply means that all the more modern steering systems are poor? John seems to agree on this calling all the newer Impreza’s so poor that they are hard to trust down any sort of challenging road- never “keying” into the road surface as is the term coined of recent.
On my special government sponcered pilgimage to the uk in 99′ no one much liked the house Quattro 20v on hand, indeed it didn’t even make it to the final round in Wales, no one was too impressed. At the time John told me its handling was both “inert” and “benign”. Last going back to the cars most favorable review of all: Rich had told me and wrote in PC mag back in 97/98 that on similar sodden roads at suicide speeds in comparison to the Mitsubishi evo, Subaru Impreza, R33 GT-R, and Integrale, that the Quattro was the most more reassuring to drive fast of all? Wondering how there can be such differing thinking on this one car? How does the car go from the most grip to the least? Bad tires? Was this a badly sorted car? Thoughts RichM? J
Scoobiewrx
December 27, 2008Excellent write up, lovely choice of cars. Would love to see the vid to this if there was one ;O)
I think having the new Type20 pitted against the last Type25 for (in my humble opinion) real comparison might have been equally very interesting. I bet the Type25 is still better all round and a lot more engaging to drive.
That would be a hoot to see on vid and no doubt great fun for the testers!!
Scoobiewrx
December 27, 2008Excellent write up, lovely choice of cars. Would love to see the vid to this if there was one ;O)
I think having the new Type20 pitted against the last Type25 for (in my humble opinion) real comparison might have been equally very interesting. I bet the Type25 is still better all round and a lot more engaging to drive.
That would be a hoot to see on vid and no doubt great fun for the testers!!
jeremy
December 27, 2008Let me clarify my point some more. I mean I hope this topic of 4wd supercars is worth the extra conversation? Or are we meant to read an article and cease talking about the cars? Or possible you could set of topics for us to speak about regarding these cars?
About the UrQuattro; while I have no doubt that Jethro and chris and Rich? found the Q to have less grip than the monster wheeled AST sprung Sti, no one has ever stated before that the Quattro’s “grip level isn’t especially high”? UrQuattro’s, especially in the wet are known to have almost heroic levels of grip? I’ve spoken to many CLassic Impreza drivers- RB-5/P1 etc who told me their UrQ’s out griped the Impreza down wet roads? That really is a first time I’ve heard that in the the automotive world. I think this brings up a few important questions that should be discussed. Topics like whether this example was a poor, or that we now have taken a leep in the auto world to (read Audi S4, GT-R) complete “grip”, where some cars really don’t slip at all and we ask ourselves why slip when the car can monster 97% of curves? Or is it different, does slip help us when we really need it, letting us know REALLY where the cars limits are; indeed a safer mode of fast driving? I mean an sti or SKyline will slip, and when it does one assumes you might not be able to catch it and crash.
Or again if this sort of talk is not right for here, is there someplace here for this- or an Subaru or Audi forum? Indeed guys I know I may be pushing to hard here, as it doesn’t seem to be of interest to more than 5 or 6 commenters? So it may not be interesting to you or worth your while. IF a tree falls in the forest…
jeremy
December 27, 2008Let me clarify my point some more. I mean I hope this topic of 4wd supercars is worth the extra conversation? Or are we meant to read an article and cease talking about the cars? Or possible you could set of topics for us to speak about regarding these cars?
About the UrQuattro; while I have no doubt that Jethro and chris and Rich? found the Q to have less grip than the monster wheeled AST sprung Sti, no one has ever stated before that the Quattro’s “grip level isn’t especially high”? UrQuattro’s, especially in the wet are known to have almost heroic levels of grip? I’ve spoken to many CLassic Impreza drivers- RB-5/P1 etc who told me their UrQ’s out griped the Impreza down wet roads? That really is a first time I’ve heard that in the the automotive world. I think this brings up a few important questions that should be discussed. Topics like whether this example was a poor, or that we now have taken a leep in the auto world to (read Audi S4, GT-R) complete “grip”, where some cars really don’t slip at all and we ask ourselves why slip when the car can monster 97% of curves? Or is it different, does slip help us when we really need it, letting us know REALLY where the cars limits are; indeed a safer mode of fast driving? I mean an sti or SKyline will slip, and when it does one assumes you might not be able to catch it and crash.
Or again if this sort of talk is not right for here, is there someplace here for this- or an Subaru or Audi forum? Indeed guys I know I may be pushing to hard here, as it doesn’t seem to be of interest to more than 5 or 6 commenters? So it may not be interesting to you or worth your while. IF a tree falls in the forest…
Jethro Bovingdon
December 28, 2008The quattro belonged to Audi UK and felt pretty fit to me. Perhaps the damping was a bit tired, but most older cars feel like they have tired dampers compared to modern stuff – even if they’re running new suspension.
The roads were greasy rather than wet most of the day and on Goodyear Eagles the Audi simply didn’t have anywhere near as much grip as the Evo, which in turn had less than the STi. The left-right combination used for the STi/Evo vids was a case in point. The Impreza needed everyone of its 400bhp to start to exceed grip levels, the Evo easier to unsettle but done on the brakes rather than power. The quattro was probably travelling 10-15mph slower relative to the Impreza (at entry – more at exit as you could get on the power earlier and there was so much more to deploy) when it started to understeer. The tyres had plenty of tread left, however I couldn’t vouch for how long they’d been on the car and not been through a heat cycle.
Perhaps on streaming wet roads the quattro might have fared better in terms of sheer grip/speed (certainly its benign balance would be very reassuring), but as I said in the story pure ground covering ability is becoming less relevant just at a time when grip is taking a massive leap upwards. Maybe the Nürburgring lap obsession is to blame? However, I spoken to manufacturers about this increase in grip/traction and they say they can’t very well deliberately peg grip levels and then get the blame for people falling off the road. Remember, things like stopping distances are also dependent on tyres – so to reduce grip could be seen as making cars less safe.
Of course more grip means the car will be traveling much faster when it lets go – meaning potentially a bigger accident. But I reckon modern cars aren’t the grip-grip-grip-crash machines that lovers of classics suggest. The stakes are a bit higher, but I suspect the Impreza is just as catchable as a quattro when they’re both pointing 45-degrees to the intended trajectory.
Jethro Bovingdon
December 28, 2008The quattro belonged to Audi UK and felt pretty fit to me. Perhaps the damping was a bit tired, but most older cars feel like they have tired dampers compared to modern stuff – even if they’re running new suspension.
The roads were greasy rather than wet most of the day and on Goodyear Eagles the Audi simply didn’t have anywhere near as much grip as the Evo, which in turn had less than the STi. The left-right combination used for the STi/Evo vids was a case in point. The Impreza needed everyone of its 400bhp to start to exceed grip levels, the Evo easier to unsettle but done on the brakes rather than power. The quattro was probably travelling 10-15mph slower relative to the Impreza (at entry – more at exit as you could get on the power earlier and there was so much more to deploy) when it started to understeer. The tyres had plenty of tread left, however I couldn’t vouch for how long they’d been on the car and not been through a heat cycle.
Perhaps on streaming wet roads the quattro might have fared better in terms of sheer grip/speed (certainly its benign balance would be very reassuring), but as I said in the story pure ground covering ability is becoming less relevant just at a time when grip is taking a massive leap upwards. Maybe the Nürburgring lap obsession is to blame? However, I spoken to manufacturers about this increase in grip/traction and they say they can’t very well deliberately peg grip levels and then get the blame for people falling off the road. Remember, things like stopping distances are also dependent on tyres – so to reduce grip could be seen as making cars less safe.
Of course more grip means the car will be traveling much faster when it lets go – meaning potentially a bigger accident. But I reckon modern cars aren’t the grip-grip-grip-crash machines that lovers of classics suggest. The stakes are a bit higher, but I suspect the Impreza is just as catchable as a quattro when they’re both pointing 45-degrees to the intended trajectory.
Tom Humes
December 29, 2008Nice Site layout for your blog. I am looking forward to reading more from you.
Tom Humes
Tom Humes
December 29, 2008Nice Site layout for your blog. I am looking forward to reading more from you.
Tom Humes
Richard - DR
December 29, 2008Jeremy,
Sorry for the delayed response. Brace yourself for a long and rambling reply…
In answer to your question, unfortunately I wasn’t on the test. I’d have loved to be there, but with a small team we can’t always be in full attendance. One day perhaps…
My memories of the quattro from that original PC test way back when (was it 1995?) suggest it felt more planted and stable but less agile than the other cars. I think this stems from Piech’s original brief, which must have simply been to use all-wheel drive to maximise stability by compensating for the shortcomings in tyre and suspension technology of the day. A quattro simply didn’t need to be agile or adjustable because it found its speed through traction and stability. The same can be said of an Integrale, as that too has great feel and inspires confidence but at the same time feels a bit ‘steady’ and slow-witted compared to a mid-to-late model Evo or Impreza.
Nowadays, thanks to better tyres, suspension and crucially electronic driver aids, the gulf between a two-wheel drive car and an all-wheel drive car with a given power and torque output is tiny compared to what it was 25 years ago. As we found on the V8 saloons test, the M3, C63 and IS-F all found immense traction in terrible conditions, through both mechanical grip and electronic aids. In the end our speed through a corner wasn’t limited so much by the car’s ability to put the power down, but by the lateral grip available from the front tyres. Perhaps we could examine the gap between two and four-wheel drive with a Focus RS vs Impreza STi test…
I’m sure the same was true of the three all-wheel drive cars Jethro tested, and as the quattro had the oldest/smallest tyres, it generated the least turn-in bite and lateral grip as a result. I’m sure that the quattro could be improved markedly with the fitment of 2008 rubber (assuming you could get some to fit those tiny diameter wheels(!) but then you’d doubtless expose the shortcomings in the damping/braking.
Looking at the video it is also clear that the Evo’s chassis has zero understeer, and that the Impreza has more than enough adjustability and grunt to neutralise any understeer with a lift on turn-in and plenty of gas once the tail is sliding. The Audi never worked like that, even in WRC trim with Walter behind the wheel: they seemed to stand them on their nose, get the thing pointed straight then fire out of the corner.
With 220bhp it simply doesn’t have the firepower to play the games the newer cars can, but that doesn’t mean it has lost its ability to carry speed on a long, cross-country drive in poor conditions. Indeed as Jethro touches on in his response, through longer, less aggressive turns where lateral grip is less critical the quattro would still be a reassuring and rapid machine. I certainly remember the way it flowed – maintaining speed without needing to accelerate or brake furiously to make fast progress. Unfortunately, I suspect it would now be considerably out-paced by its younger rivals, as although they would feel more frantic to drive, the spikes in pace would see them build an advantage that the Audi couldn’t haul back.
For what it’s worth, there were more oohs and aahs when we were looking through the images of the Audi, so while its grip of the road may have diminished, its ability to hold our attention and fire our imaginations remains as strong as ever.
Richard - DR
December 29, 2008Jeremy,
Sorry for the delayed response. Brace yourself for a long and rambling reply…
In answer to your question, unfortunately I wasn’t on the test. I’d have loved to be there, but with a small team we can’t always be in full attendance. One day perhaps…
My memories of the quattro from that original PC test way back when (was it 1995?) suggest it felt more planted and stable but less agile than the other cars. I think this stems from Piech’s original brief, which must have simply been to use all-wheel drive to maximise stability by compensating for the shortcomings in tyre and suspension technology of the day. A quattro simply didn’t need to be agile or adjustable because it found its speed through traction and stability. The same can be said of an Integrale, as that too has great feel and inspires confidence but at the same time feels a bit ‘steady’ and slow-witted compared to a mid-to-late model Evo or Impreza.
Nowadays, thanks to better tyres, suspension and crucially electronic driver aids, the gulf between a two-wheel drive car and an all-wheel drive car with a given power and torque output is tiny compared to what it was 25 years ago. As we found on the V8 saloons test, the M3, C63 and IS-F all found immense traction in terrible conditions, through both mechanical grip and electronic aids. In the end our speed through a corner wasn’t limited so much by the car’s ability to put the power down, but by the lateral grip available from the front tyres. Perhaps we could examine the gap between two and four-wheel drive with a Focus RS vs Impreza STi test…
I’m sure the same was true of the three all-wheel drive cars Jethro tested, and as the quattro had the oldest/smallest tyres, it generated the least turn-in bite and lateral grip as a result. I’m sure that the quattro could be improved markedly with the fitment of 2008 rubber (assuming you could get some to fit those tiny diameter wheels(!) but then you’d doubtless expose the shortcomings in the damping/braking.
Looking at the video it is also clear that the Evo’s chassis has zero understeer, and that the Impreza has more than enough adjustability and grunt to neutralise any understeer with a lift on turn-in and plenty of gas once the tail is sliding. The Audi never worked like that, even in WRC trim with Walter behind the wheel: they seemed to stand them on their nose, get the thing pointed straight then fire out of the corner.
With 220bhp it simply doesn’t have the firepower to play the games the newer cars can, but that doesn’t mean it has lost its ability to carry speed on a long, cross-country drive in poor conditions. Indeed as Jethro touches on in his response, through longer, less aggressive turns where lateral grip is less critical the quattro would still be a reassuring and rapid machine. I certainly remember the way it flowed – maintaining speed without needing to accelerate or brake furiously to make fast progress. Unfortunately, I suspect it would now be considerably out-paced by its younger rivals, as although they would feel more frantic to drive, the spikes in pace would see them build an advantage that the Audi couldn’t haul back.
For what it’s worth, there were more oohs and aahs when we were looking through the images of the Audi, so while its grip of the road may have diminished, its ability to hold our attention and fire our imaginations remains as strong as ever.
Steve
December 29, 2008All this talk of the Audi Quattro reminds me that we’ve got a great audio track of the S1 Quattro as driven by Michelle Mouton (with Chris Harris riding shotgun).
Many of us remember the Audi Quattro not for its grip, but for possesing one of the most evocative soundtracks ever produced by a car. Go listen if you haven’t done so already.
http://www.drivers-republic.com/audio/audiolist/?AlbumID=42cf76a540874d2d8f99d999618a0fc2
Steve
December 29, 2008All this talk of the Audi Quattro reminds me that we’ve got a great audio track of the S1 Quattro as driven by Michelle Mouton (with Chris Harris riding shotgun).
Many of us remember the Audi Quattro not for its grip, but for possesing one of the most evocative soundtracks ever produced by a car. Go listen if you haven’t done so already.
http://www.drivers-republic.com/audio/audiolist/?AlbumID=42cf76a540874d2d8f99d999618a0fc2
Richard - DR
December 29, 2008Thanks Steve. That’s the sound of understeer right there
Wow, it certainly has some b-o-o-O-O-O-S-T though doesn’t it?
Richard - DR
December 29, 2008Thanks Steve. That’s the sound of understeer right there
Wow, it certainly has some b-o-o-O-O-O-S-T though doesn’t it?
jeremy
December 29, 2008Oh boy. Must admit I’m a little dumbstruck here. I havn’t had contact and intelligent back and forth with knowledable auto folks in years and years. You guys are alive and responding. And well.
Thanks for that. IT was like a coming out of a 12 step and hitting the crack pipe for the first time in memory.
Rich, that PC test was in Dec 97′. In fact somewhere on one of my old computers I have notes I took from one of our long chats about that halmark camparison- remember the 306 couldn’t keep up. That test stands in my mind as one of the best pieces of auto jounalism I’ve read. One got the feeling that you guys had driven the cars a bit too hard and maybe risked your life! BTW I had bought a mint 20v and shipped it to California back in 99′, but I had to sell it in 01′ cause I blow through all my $$ trying and (almost there in 09′!) to build a new semantic search engine. I’ll get back with some thoughts on the great thoughts just posted by Jethro and you, J
jeremy
December 29, 2008Oh boy. Must admit I’m a little dumbstruck here. I havn’t had contact and intelligent back and forth with knowledable auto folks in years and years. You guys are alive and responding. And well.
Thanks for that. IT was like a coming out of a 12 step and hitting the crack pipe for the first time in memory.
Rich, that PC test was in Dec 97′. In fact somewhere on one of my old computers I have notes I took from one of our long chats about that halmark camparison- remember the 306 couldn’t keep up. That test stands in my mind as one of the best pieces of auto jounalism I’ve read. One got the feeling that you guys had driven the cars a bit too hard and maybe risked your life! BTW I had bought a mint 20v and shipped it to California back in 99′, but I had to sell it in 01′ cause I blow through all my $$ trying and (almost there in 09′!) to build a new semantic search engine. I’ll get back with some thoughts on the great thoughts just posted by Jethro and you, J